Is there really such a thing as "progressive" rock?

[robert@fm]

I don't think so. Quite apart from the fact that just about any modern musical style evolves over time and can thus be called "progressive", I question the claim that "prog" is a style somehow different from other types of rock.

Punk is definitely a distinct style, or was until it turned mainstream and mutated into "New Wave" (a term they nicked from SF, which in turn nicked it from the cinema), but I doubt that the same can really be said of "prog". After all, what are supposed to be the "distinguishing" features of "prog"? They are (1) weird time signatures, (2) very long tracks and (3) influences from classical music. Well, let's look at them in turn:

1. Weird time signatures. The Dave Brubeck Quartet did that back in the 1950s.
   
2. Loooong tracks. But tracks have always been of different lengths; unless a genre is intended for disco floors instead of actual listening, there's no reason why a track should have to be 2-4 minutes long. The Beatles weren't prog (they broke up just as prog was getting started) but some of their tracks were 7-8 minutes long, and Helter Skelter from the white album was cut down from its original 22-minute length.
   
3. Classical influences. This is probably the least distinctive "distinguishing" feature ever; composers have always borrowed/stolen from earlier composers; long before ELP did The Barbarian and Knife-Edge (cribbed from Borodin and Janacek respectively, as anyone knows who's read the sleeve-notes of that album), there was Lovers' Concerto and A Groovy Kind of Love, stolen respectively from J S Bach (the Minuet from the "Anna Magdelana" Suite) and some other Baroque composer (sadly I've forgotten the details). This practice of course continues to this day, not just in "prog"; for instance, the so-called "John Williams composition" Title Music from "Jurassic Park" -- or, as music lovers prefer to call it, Fugue no. 2 from book 1 of "The Well-Tempered Clavier".

Indeed, I think that in my MP3 collection there are too many wildly different genre tags for what is actually the same genre; "Rock", "Rock & Roll", "Progressive Rock", "Classic Prog", "Classic AOR"... the list goes ever on and on, and makes a genre search needlessly difficult. Someday I'm going to search out all the needless variants and replace them all with just "Rock".

[Tsunami]

I would personally state that one can speak of progressive rock (or progressive metal, which also is an often used tag for some bands' music) once a band has made those in their timeframe unusual things as a signature of their music.

Very long tracks have been done before, but bands such as Rush, the early Genesis (Peter Gabriel era) or more recently The God Machine, Tool, ... have made it one of their most known features and did so at a moment in time when most other bands in their musical style did not choose for such lengthy tracks.
(By the way, the first band who had mainstream success with a very long track were the Moody Blues with "Nights in White Satin" which was initially not played on most radio stations because they feared the track was too long for mainstream audiences. Only when the single was re-released a 1 or 2 years later it suddenly did get picked up by radio and TV and became an evergreen)

I would also say complexity of the track in general (not just unusual chords or so) can add to a band being considered progressive. The later albums of Talk Talk, or the early Sigur Ros are examples of bands who moved the boundaries of music with tracks that were very demanding to listen to because they were so different from the music generally played at that time. Complexity can be about chords or time signatures, but it can also be a combination of those with length, complex lyrics, use of instruments atypical to the genre, complex and unusual change of rhythm, noise structures added to the sound, ...
The combination of several of those things can make bands stand out and then the term progressive can rightfully be applied IMO.

Use of classical influences has often applied to the term progressive also in metal. Bands such as Within Temptation, Epica, After Forever, ... The whole gothic movement has borrowed from classical influences but the term progressive rarely has been applied to those. It was more seen as a new genre rather than a more progressive form of existing music genres.

Also, I think we should notice that the term "progressive rock" becomes widely used once there are enough bands making music that experiments with the boundaries of an existing style, and when they achieve a certain success doing so. Rush, Genesis, The Doors, early Pink Floyd etc stood out but the fact there's multiple bands at the same time experimenting with the boundaries of rock made it look like a whole movement developping. I doubt the term progressive would have been widely used if we were talking about just 1 band.

I do think the term rightfully exists, and with bands such as Orphaned Land, God Machine, Rush and Tool amongst my favourites I can safely say I am a fan of progressive rock and progressive metal

PS: punk is a style in its own right that should not be confused with rock. New wave is yet another style, more closely related to gothic and darkwave, without saying there is no less strong connection to punk too.

[Tsunami]

So Robert, did you find some proper progressive rock yet?

Just listen to some tracks of Genesis (such as the 22 minute Supper's Ready), Rush (except for a few more radio-friendly tracks such as Limelight, Spirit of Radio, etc... a lot of their earlier records contain very lengthy tracks), The God Machine ("Seven" or the complex noise structures on "Purity" are good examples), Tool (the two-piece "Wings for Marie / 10000 Days" a prime example) and tell me why this would not be considered progressive

PS: not trying to convince anyone, but I think it is a very interesting topic where it'd be a pity if it'd just die out and vanish in the obscurity of the very old topics.

[chrisretusn]

I don't remember calling what is now defined as progressive rock, progressive rock when I was listening to it in the late 60's and early 70's.

We just called it rock.

I am in agreement with "I don't think so.".

[robert@fm]

As regards the term/label "progressive rock", this dates back to 1974 at the latest, because when I was in school I heard of a pirate station called Geronimo which specialised in prog (and themselves called it that), and I left school in 1974.

[Tsunami]

There is progressive rock now as much as back then. Because music continues to evolve and move boundaries. Hence, every new evolution could be considered progressive in its own way. The no-wave movement for example: a band like Swans did something never done before, the term progressive was never applied (instead the term no-wave was applied) but in a way this is also progressive because it moved on from earlier music and moved the boundaries further and further. A band like Tool in my opinion and to lesser extend The God Machine (they may be a bit too heavy to compare with Rush) contain a lot of elements that make me remember the music of Pink Floyd or Rush, a bit louder maybe but still there's a lot of similarities. Rush being an example of a band widely considered as progressive rock.

PS: nowadays there is also "post rock" ; the style of rock typical to bands such as Sigur Ros and the last two records of Talk Talk. If something is "post rock", doesn't that literally mean it is beyond rock and thus no longer to be classified as rock?

[Bamb0]

I dont like very much "Progressive rock"

There is a band who has a 1989 Fates Warning album that is progressive rock I do happen to like,but there isnt many!

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfec...Warning_album)

That album is considered PROGRESSIVE METAL,maybe thats why I like it....

I have it on cassette...

[Tsunami]

I think I have to re-specify my earlier post.

Yes, prog rock (or prog metal) is a genre. For sure. However, boundaries of genres are sometimes hard to determine.

But if you listen to songs by Tool, Pink Floyd, some songs by Marillion, Rush, ... and you say they are not progressive, then it's like denying sunlight. Progressive can mean a lot of things: unusual song lengths, unusual song structures, sudden changes in sound or rhythm, ...

The thing is though: often genre tags are given only after several songs or bands have already been making this sound. Of course there were already songs that can retrospectively been called "prog rock" way before the genre received a name. "In a Gadda Da Vida" by Iron Butterfly is a good example: the tag "prog" was not in use yet, but listen to that song and you'll hear it's prog. Same with the original "Helter Skelter" by The Beatles before they cut it to the "normal" length (does the complete version, over 20 minutes long, still exist on some album or on YouTube?? They never included it in an official release to my knowledge).

This applies to several genres by the way.
The term "gothic" came into use when Bauhaus broke through, followed instantly by bands such as The Cure, Siouxsie & The Banshees, ... But retrospectively, you can easily say Joy Division were goth as well, but the tag wasn't in use yet.

There's a lot of genre tags that came into being only after several bands or releases have been playing the style of music already.

Also, there are often vague boundaries. Would you consider Soft Cell (who also have a following amongst Goths) to be new wave, synthpop or electronic music?
Would you consider Led Zeppelin hard rock, prog rock, or metal?
Would you consider the likes of Manic Street Preachers, Oasis, Placebo, Sleeper to be "indie", "britpop", "alternative rock"?
Would you consider Rammstein to be "metal", "industrial" or "Neue Deutsche H?rte"?

I think genre tags are only useful to discover new bands. If I see a band labeled as shoegaze, knowing that that tag has been applied to Slowdive whom I like a lot, I will be curious because knowing that I like Slowdive I may like fellow shoegaze bands too.

[mister]

https://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=10186
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeTGjvDOWpg
Takes a few listens but one of my all time faves. Everything from musique concrete to music hall.